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Posted by: Freespool Nov 3 2016, 05:23 PM

I am so disappointed with what gets the approved check from the QC guys in todays RV's. That being said, I am sure many look good in the beginning but soon, far too many simply fall apart. I just refused a brand new popular model because of quality issue's. I am now looking at the Mammoth and the Everest made by Host. These products both will cost in access of 50K. Take a look at this 9 year old model that still cost over 27K. Go to Host, then go to dealers and click on All Season RV. Look at the second model. This camper is only 9 years old. Now I must say, I have no idea how it was taken care of but look at the delamb issue's that are clearly visible. I am quickly running out of choices.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Nov 5 2016, 08:22 AM

If you want quality and don't mine paying for it, 4 seasons and Alaskan is what you want or buy an old Avion and restore it.

The problem with the RV industry is other than RVIA, there is no regulatory body so every manufacturer sets their own quality standards and a lot aren't very high and that includes all RV's not just truck campers...

It's not about build quality, it's about making the most profit. That was my main impetus in purchasing a Forest River Palomino. Palomino RV was a schlock manufacturer until Warren Buffet bought them and instituted some semblance of quality control in manufacture. Now, Palomino is up there with medium priced units in build quality and attention to detail. It's not an Alaskan but it's still a dam sight better than it was 5 years ago. Case in point, Palomino canned their 2 piece always leaking door for a one piece door and quit offering an aluminum skinned unit. Aluminum skinned campers are chronic leakers because of the seams in the skin. Palomino now only offers their units in one piece sheathed gloss coat FRP with a one piece aluminum skinned roof. No maintenance (other than edge seals and an infrequent waxing) and long life.

Keep in mind that a 'rubber roof' must be maintained and reskinned at some point. The membrane deteriorates from the UV rays of the sun and most people store their units outside (I don't). Aluminum is basically forever.

Back in the day, you'd find vinyl moulding inside, between cabinets and the structure, to cover misalignment (poor workmanship). That is all gone now. Fitment is tight and alignment is excellent, no vinyl moldings, a testament to quality control....Thanks Warren....

Take Lance, supposedly the 'Caddilac' of campers. Lance has been plagued with water issues for years and delamination is commonplace in their units. Poor quality control and lack of attention to detail in assembly. Lance puts profit over quality in build. That is a bad ethic.

IMO, all new truck campers are seriously overpriced, so I did extensive research concerning the biggest 'bang for the buck' and bought a Palomino.

I had a Lance (was my first camper and I bought it new, so I'm aware of their shortfalls.

If I had a large wallet (I'm retired) I would have bought an Alaskan and spec'd it out to my exact needs.

Keep in mind that no matter what brand you buy, they all use the same appliances (Dometic, Atwood, Norcold, Suburban and other sub contract manufacturers) so ot comes down to structure and build quality verses asking price.

Myself, I'm not interested in slideouts, fancy electric awnings and fru-fru that fails down the road and costs a bundle to replace, I want a basic camper to go camping with. If I wanted all the amenities, I'd just stay home.

The term 'camping' has been lost. Now it's all about luxury, big screen TV's, climate control, remote controlled jacks, on board laundry, bathtubs...all things I consider not necessary to go 'camping'.

Posted by: Freespool Nov 5 2016, 11:39 AM

You make some good points and it sounds like our taste are not to far apart. My main problem is I love space. The Alaskan is just to small for me and if I remember it's also a pop top. I would never consider a pop top. The Northstar 12 foot unit appears to be very well made but it's only 93" wide and has no slide, again to small. I think we both like and understand the advantages of one piece fiberglass walls, the problem continues to be delamination. Once this occurs the product is history. Funny thing is my tin side 13 year travel trailer has never leaked or delaminated, sometimes change is bad. My 25 year old Foretravel motor home had fiberglass walls with gel coat and never had a exterior problem so I no this type of construction can be built. I guess I wish Airstream made a truck camper, as far as I am concerned they are one of the last rv's that still is built to last, rather than just make a profit for the builder.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Nov 7 2016, 04:16 PM

I must have a popup. I have clearance issues in the woods, I always boondock, always and a solid side camper is way too tall. The Alaskan is a popup but the top is solid and telescopes down over the lower section.

I like space as well.. I prefer outside space however. My camper is about having a place to sleep, cook and in my wife's case to go potty. I go camping to be outside, not in a camper and no matter how big a truck camper is, it's still tiny compared to a TT of 5er.

Big is heavy. Tall is wind resistsance and bad handling. I own plenty of truck but why haul around a large anchor of a camper. The camper is about a roof from the rain and sleeping without being dinner for skeeters and cooking and thats about it.

Far as quality, they all have issues. Some are easier to deal with than others.

Posted by: Freespool Nov 7 2016, 06:05 PM

Thanks for the dialog, it makes the board so much more fun. Our needs are simply different. I have no concerns about clearance of any kind, I new only a large camper would work for me. This is why I bought a big truck with a diesel. I bought the truck strictly to be used for camping and towing my boat. I drive the speed limit and along with the huge torque the motor makes the mileage barely changes. I own a large travel trailer with a great layout, the problem is I can't bring my boat when I bring the trailer. This is the only reason I thought the truck camper would work for me. The problem I am having is cost and quality related. Even the 50 and 60 grand campers are loaded with problems. I just passed on a bran new 31K camper because of quality. This single issue may very well keep me from buying a truck camper. I may be forced to retain my class 1 licence and sell my pull trailer in order to buy a 5th wheel, at least then I could pull both trailers. I know there are several 25-28 foot 5th wheel trailers that will meet by quality expectations. There cost is about the same but the space they provide dwarfs even the triple slides. The quality issue will be my top priority and determine which way I go.

Posted by: Dr Dee Nov 17 2016, 07:31 PM

I am so disappointed with what gets the approved check from the QC guys in todays RV's.  That being said, I am sure many look good in the beginning but soon,  far too many simply fall apart.  I just refused a brand new popular model because of quality issue's.  I am now looking at the Mammoth and the Everest made by Host.  These products both will cost in access of 50K.  Take a look at this 9 year old model that still cost over 27K.  Go to Host, then go to dealers and click on All Season RV.  Look at the second model.  This camper is only 9 years old.  Now I must say, I have no idea how it was taken care of but look at the delamb issue's that are clearly visible.  I am quickly running out of choices.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Nov 23 2016, 08:44 PM

I frequent the Forest River forum and there are always posts about poor quality, from doors falling off to screws run through plumbing lines at the factory to windows installed backwards to axles being loose...all kinds of things that are QC that are overlooked. Then after a year of ownership comes the water leaks, rotting wood and delamination.

Not good.

Very few TC's on that forum, interestingly, in as much as FR owns Palomino.

I looked at TC's pretty hard before I bought my new one last year, having owned a Lance and experienced it's issues. The Palomino ticks all my boxes far as utility and quality build goes, so I bought one and I've had no issues whatsoever, with anything.

Fit, finish, alignment of components and user convenience rate high on this unit in my opinion, plus it wasn't 30 grand.

My only gripe (if you want to call it that) is the lack of tank level indicators which I'll address with a Seelevel system and only one house battery which I'll also address this winter.... and knee wall access doors, for some strange reason, Palomino don't factory install them. I'll address that as well.

I too have a big diesel pickup truck with plenty of ponies (Full Banks Kit) so hauling any camper built isn't an issue for me. I can haul a double slide with on board genny if I wanted to. I don't. require a low overall clearance unit and I want to be as light and have as low as Cg as possible, something you would understand if you were negotiating seasonal roads in off camber situations like I do.

The higher the camper and the more stuff thats mounted high like roof AC and high mounted microwaves and fridges, increase the Cg and roll point and contribute to bad handling off toad, things I don't want to deal with.

I don't stay in campgrounds on gravel pads. I camp in the woods, usually in uneven ground. No hookups, no water spigot, nothing.

I hauled my Lance all over the country in all kinds of conditions and I know what a tall camper feels like and how it handles.

Posted by: Murdog Nov 28 2016, 04:13 PM

I am so disappointed with what gets the approved check from the QC guys in todays RV's.  That being said, I am sure many look good in the beginning but soon,  far too many simply fall apart.  I just refused a brand new popular model because of quality issue's.  I am now looking at the Mammoth and the Everest made by Host.  These products both will cost in access of 50K.  Take a look at this 9 year old model that still cost over 27K.  Go to Host, then go to dealers and click on All Season RV.  Look at the second model.  This camper is only 9 years old.  Now I must say, I have no idea how it was taken care of but look at the delamb issue's that are clearly visible.  I am quickly running out of choices.

Posted by: Freespool Nov 29 2016, 07:14 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I agree with you Murdog, the Northern Light looks well made, maybe it's a Canadian thing. I remember shopping for a nice formal dining table with chairs and the one I like most was also built in Canada. The problem I have with Northstar's, Northern Lights and Bigfoots is space. Without at least one slide, two or three would be much better there is simply not enough room for my needs. The Host seems to address all of my needs, however the cost is so ridiculous I don't feel good about ordering one.

Posted by: Boulderutah Jan 5 2017, 10:39 PM

Thanks for the input guys.  I agree with you Murdog, the Northern Light looks well made, maybe it's a Canadian thing.  I remember shopping for a nice formal dining table with chairs and the one I like most was also built in Canada.  The problem I have with Northstar's, Northern Lights and Bigfoots is space.  Without at least one slide, two or three would be much better there is simply not enough room for  my needs.  The Host seems to address all of my needs, however the cost is so ridiculous I don't feel good about ordering one.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 7 2017, 09:40 AM

What I find interesting is. truck beds are getting shorter, engines are getting smaller and truck campers are getting HEAVIER.

The Cirrus is a tank weight wise. Good luck with that.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 8 2017, 11:41 AM

I don't ever see overall quality improving much past the point where it's at today in cookie cutter campers simply because the industry mantra is about the best profit with the least expense.

Why would any builder offer an extended warranty when they know down the road (pun intended) that components will fail.

The other issue I see (from reading various forums) is that buyers, for the most part, haven't a clue about how to maintain or even do simple repairs. I read more stupid posts from ignorant owners than I care to read.

At least TC'ers have a bit of common sense, the rest of the RV crowd is basically clueless.

The one thing that bothers me with TC'ers is most want a TT or 5er interior and all the luxury stuff which equates to a tank camper and then they want to haul it in s short bed 1/2 ton truck. I don't get that. Overbuy the truck and drivetrain FIRST, then get a camper based on the capacity of the truck and not your fantasy capacity.

Overloading a truck with an overweight camper contributes to bad handling and poor stopping and shorter component life.

Trucks are getting shorter (bed) and smaller engines and campers are getting bigger and heavier. The way I see that, it's a bad mix.

Posted by: Freespool Jan 8 2017, 04:46 PM

I agree with most of your observations SidecarFlip. The all mighty dollar and the endless pursuit of profit will unfortunately take priority over building quality products. The Amish are probably last people who still believe in workmanship. With that being said I will acknowledge that there are a few T/C builders who try, unfortunately more often than not these are also the builders who don't believe in basements or slides. I need both plus a high quality product along with a price that makes since. So far, I have not seen a camper that meets all of my needs. Switching gears to your truck observations I am happy to say I think that trucks in general have gotten much better. There will always be a market for short beds, they just look cool, however there short comings are obvious. I think truck engines have gone in both directions. Today's truck buyers are a lucky group, everything from 4 cylinder diesels that get 30 mpg to monster trucks with 900 plus pounds of torque and over 400HP are available. The weight issue is where there is potential problems. Truck campers have grown in size and weight over the years and truck manufacturers have not properly built trucks to handle the weight. I think this is the markets fault, truck campers make up a small percentage of the RV industry. Most people want to pull, not carry there RV. This is why we see 3/4 ton trucks pulling 32' trailers with relative ease. Most of us know the same truck will struggle with just a mid size camper. The simple solution is to go back and reintroduce the camper or trailer special like Ford did in the past. Camper special trucks would be much different than there counter parts. To bad this will probably never happen simply because the camper market is so small. Prioritizing profit sounds good to the stock holders but not so much for the consumers.

Posted by: Rider99 Jan 10 2017, 03:55 PM

I consider my self very lucky after reading this. I am on my fourth Lance truck camper and have never experienced a quality problem with the exception of a minor exterior water drip. From the early 80's to currently a new '16 Lance 995. Also had a Alpenlite for about 18 months, nice camper. Spent a great deal of time looking at everything available and decided on another Lance. My experience with Class A motorhomes is just the opposite.....horrible build quality, customer service and a very expensive lesson I learned. Can't seem to find any fault with Lance quality control and customer service.

Posted by: Freespool Jan 10 2017, 05:54 PM

Congratulations Rider99, I love to hear about happy experiences. I really think it's the luck of the draw, unfortunately my luck sucks. The only RV's I have ever done ok with are trailers. My motor home had some redeeming values but mostly it was repair bills. I have already had one name brand T/C that was a lemon. I love the 1172 with it's user friendly layout but I hate the slide assembly on the rear slide and the fridge on the slide. Lance cabinets don't use face frames, WHY? Plus I really don't feel it's worth 43K.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 11 2017, 02:22 PM

I have a 918 Lance sitting in the side yard I'll sell cheap.... Needs a board for the Norcold and a couple vent overs. I'ts loaded. It's heavy too.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 11 2017, 07:44 PM

I agree with most of your observations SidecarFlip.  The all mighty dollar and the endless pursuit of profit will unfortunately take priority over building quality products.  The Amish are probably last people who still believe in workmanship. With that being said I will acknowledge that there are a few T/C builders who try, unfortunately more often than not these are also the builders who don't believe in basements or slides.  I need both plus a high quality product along with a price that makes since.  So far, I have not seen a camper that meets all of my needs.  Switching gears to your truck observations I am happy to say I think that trucks in general have gotten much better.  There will always be a market for short beds, they just look cool, however there short comings are obvious.  I think truck engines have gone in both directions.  Today's truck buyers are a lucky group, everything from 4 cylinder diesels that get 30 mpg to monster trucks with 900 plus pounds of torque and over 400HP are available.  The weight issue is where there is potential problems.  Truck campers have grown in size and weight over the years and truck manufacturers have not properly built trucks to handle the weight.  I think this is the markets fault, truck campers make up a small percentage of the RV industry.  Most people want to pull, not carry there RV.  This is why we see 3/4 ton trucks pulling 32' trailers with relative ease.  Most of us know the same truck will struggle with just a mid size camper.  The simple solution is to go back and reintroduce the camper or trailer special like Ford did in the past.  Camper special trucks would be much different than there counter parts.  To bad this will probably never happen simply because the camper market is so small.  Prioritizing profit sounds good to the stock holders but not so much for the consumers.

Posted by: towpro Jan 12 2017, 07:26 AM

Could have fooled me on that.  I just posted about that very same false assumption on the Forest River forum.  That is a very false assumption on anyone's part, perpetuated by good PR and nothing more.

The Amish working in any RV plant are no different than their gentile counterparts.  Same attitude, same work ethic.  They may be craftsmen in their mom and pop shops, but in a factory churning out RV's, never.

Quality in the end product distills down to management and their attitude toward profit, production and the employees, Amish or not come in dead last.

You can dwell on that fantasy but it reality it is just that.

I live close enough to Elkhart, Goshen and Colon, Michigan, that I can take an afternoon and drop in and I have, more than once so I can observe attitudes and worker bees in the floor and candidly, I've never seen one Amish wotker being more attentive than their gentile counterpart.

Pretty easy to pick them out, the men have beards and the women wear bonnets.

Posted by: Freespool Jan 12 2017, 05:43 PM

I can live with that opinion. Let's face it, when even a skilled craftsman has no time to properly complete the task eventually quality will suffer. I also agree management plays an important part of the whole production cycle. Wages are an additional component, I am sure the people who build Stickley home furnishings don't make 10 bucks an hour.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 14 2017, 02:26 PM

I can live with that opinion.  Let's face it, when even a skilled craftsman has no time to properly complete the task eventually quality will suffer.  I also agree management plays an important part of the whole production cycle.  Wages are an additional component, I am sure the people who build Stickley home furnishings don't make 10 bucks an hour.

Posted by: Freespool Jan 15 2017, 08:36 AM

Stickley was just an example, they manufacture airlume quality home furnishing. They are known for there quarter sawn oak and walnut pieces. I used to dabble in wood working as a hobby and the quality of there work is as close to perfection as one can get. Steel fabrication has always been known to be precise when needed thanks to CNC machines and the like. When you think about the wood worker who rely s on a primitive tape measures and add in the variance of most saw blades one can only marvel at the workmanship of a Stickley piece. I would add Airstream to your short list of favorites, I am not familiar with any other trailer that has there fit and finish, unfortunately not many of us can spend over a 100 grand for a 30 foot trailer. Life must be very good for those 1% er's in our society. I have not given up on finding a truck camper this year and during my investigative work I have seen two very telling pictures. Take a look at the Lance and the Host site and find the picture that shows just the bare framing. Safe conclusions can immediately be drawn with just one look, add in the different style slide assembly and you will understand why I keep going back to Host. My only real concern is the three picture I have found where delamanation is occurring on units that are less than 10 years old. This issue above all else may keep me from building my dream fishing rig. I also found out that the walls that are used are assembled in Calli, I have to wonder about what level of skill those workers possess. I wish the industry had never left it's roots. Quality plywood installed under T&G aluminum worked perfectly for decades. Repairs were possible and there was never a chance of wall seperation. Once again demonstrating sometimes change is bad.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 15 2017, 07:36 PM

Airstream (Thor) is nice but insanely expensive and they still use the components everyone else uses, Dometic, Atwood, Suburban and so on.

Never could see myself pulling a silver turd down the road. Just not me. Guy down the road has one, I pass it all the time (sits in his side yard). Not my thing.

Laminated walls (outside Filon) is nothing more than a cheaper alternative hyped to be better. Mine is Filon skinned and I do like the lack of any seams in the sides. Seams equal leaks, but my unit stays inside all the time when I'm not using it so it's rarely out in the weather. Amazing how nice they stay when kept indoors out of the elements.

I would not want to fix it however if it was damaged.

I owned (still do) a Lance and I'm not impressed with it, not for the price of admission.

I would be skeptical of anything built in granola land. That is where Lance is made btw. Probably why they are so expensive. Granola land labor rates are stupid high.

Posted by: Torsten Jan 16 2017, 02:39 AM

Hi,

if you are not happy with what you can buy, try to build your own Truckcamper:

http://www.boatdesigns.com/RV-Plans/departments/696/

here you can build it in the Quality that you look for, and you can do personal changes to get the best Desingn for your personal ideas.

regards

Torsten

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 16 2017, 09:29 PM

Hi,

if you are not happy with what you can buy, try to build your own Truckcamper:

http://www.boatdesigns.com/RV-Plans/departments/696/

here you can build it in the Quality that you look for, and you can do personal changes to get the best Desingn for your personal ideas.

regards

Torsten

Posted by: Torsten Jan 17 2017, 07:02 AM

Hi,

right for Offroaduse not the best, but if you look for a Slideincamper from the good old Day's its not bad.

I find this Side as i look for Ideas to rebuild my 1985 Lance 850. I will remove the Aluminiumplanking in Springtime and take a look on the Structure under it.

If i find to mutch rottet wood i think its mutch easyer to build a 100% new one as to rebuild the Lance.

But i can use 100% of the Technical thinks, like Heater, Waterheater, Fridge and so on, because all of them work.

regards

Torsten

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 17 2017, 12:53 PM

I bet you have water intrusion and the dreaded rot. My 915 Lance has / had issues as well. Again, IMO, Lance campers are supposed to be the 'Caddilac' of campers but from my experience they are more of a Volkswagen with whitewalls.

One nice thing about having a camper, even if it is rotted to the piont where the structure is unsound and not repairable, you have all the physical plant components for a home build....and don't forget the windows, cushions, vents, ac unit and light fixtures, holding tanks either. You can strip the Lance of all the reuseable components and then have a nice bonfire with the remains.

If I cannot get rid of my 915 this summer, that is what I plan on doing and selling the components. My Lance is the cold weather package so it has double pane windows, heated tanks and large furnace. It's also stout.

Posted by: skyhammer Jan 17 2017, 05:56 PM

Interesting Torsten.  I perused the site and looked at a couple builds.  Very complex and time consuming.  The one guy built his in his garage and then almost was not able to get it outside,  He had to set it on a sheet of steel and drag it out...  just barely cleared.

I also looked at Stable Loads.  This would never work for me.  Might be fine for a campground but off road, no way,  I'd rip them right off at the first creek crossing.

Interesting concept but not practical at least for me.

Posted by: SidecarFlip Jan 18 2017, 10:53 AM

I can't see how anyone could rip stable loads off. But, I can see that a stable lift could be easily ripped off.

Posted by: skyhammer Jan 18 2017, 04:48 PM

You don't boondock where I do.  I traverse seasonal roads with limited clearance (lots of times I have to cut away tree limbs and logs to get in). Too much stuff hanging down would be a bad thing, besides, the standard legs work fine so why spend the money.  Cannot see any advantage at all.  I've toyed with removing the legs entirely in the summer when the camper stays on the truck but I don't because I extend the legs when I get set up to stabilize the unit.  I release the tie downs (Happyjac) and extend the legs and lift the camper slightly off the bed, allowing the air suspension to raise the bed up a bit (I have full air suspension on the back).  I removed the leaf springs and built in an air ride system so no leaves out back at all.  Much simpler and less weight.

Posted by: AraWithSpirit Jan 18 2017, 08:41 PM

Take a look at Northern Lite campers.  I have a keen eye for build quality, I've owned two other RV's before our current Northern Lite and while the Northern Lite is not without issues, it's way better than most others in terms of fitment and quality....certainly better than any Lance's I've looked at.  Personally I think Lance's are the Chevy of truck campers not the Cadillac.  Our Northern Lite so far has 15 thousand miles and 70 nights of camping....and it's been awesome.

Thanks for the input guys.  I agree with you Murdog, the Northern Light looks well made, maybe it's a Canadian thing.  I remember shopping for a nice formal dining table with chairs and the one I like most was also built in Canada.  The problem I have with Northstar's, Northern Lights and Bigfoots is space.  Without at least one slide, two or three would be much better there is simply not enough room for  my needs.  The Host seems to address all of my needs, however the cost is so ridiculous I don't feel good about ordering one.