Hi All,
First off, thanks for running and maintaining the site! I know how tough that can be (I have a dart forum myself) and appreciate that you've done this as I was looking for a place where I could get some advice and found your site
OK, here's the details: I run a portable sawmill business (side business mostly in the spring, summer and fall) and am tired of driving back and forth to my cabin or to a hotel when on a remote job. I've decided I need to get a slide in camper so I can camp out onsite, enjoy the evenings (instead of driving) and save money on fuel not to mention time. I can drive as much as 70 miles each way on a job over a week....so even getting something like 8MPG with a camper and mill in tow would be better than getting 15mpg and driving 140 miles a day....
So after trading in my F150 for a long box F350 crew cab (2010 in great shape with only 32k miles) I went in search of a lighter 8 or 9 foot camper......
Found this 1995 Angler on CL for $1k....owner said it had some 'condensation damage'.....
This is the damaged spot. I can put my hand through it without trying.
You can clearly see the damage here.
One other spot had some minor (what I'd think of as minor in comparison to this major damage) water damage.
Owner said she sealed the roof every year and I looked at the roof and it appeared to be sealed without cracks etc....my guess is a leaking window above the seat.
I wonder if it can be repaired by cutting out the bad spot and fixing in new plywood? Is it even worth it?
I think I'd leave it alone and call it good. It was inexpensive to buy so if it continues to degrade you aren't out a bundle.
Most wood framed units that start to rot like that are really rot pots underneath and fixing them is usually a nightmare.
If everything works, I'd call it good and save up for a newer one, preferrably a Filon skinned unit.
You might be screwing into air, depending on how bad it's rotted underneath. I've use 'Git Rot' with pretty good success for building up rotted wood sections. It's not cheap and can be purchases at any Marine store.
Just be apprised, when you start pulling and patching, it may turn into something huge. Rot is progressive, not regressive.
I can tell the camper is older. RV builders quit using plastic welting to fill out of spec voids a long time ago. They use silicone caulk now.
If it was me, I'd use it and not get too excited. if you can stem the water coming in and let the rest be.
Couple of thoughts. First, how long are you willing to keep this camper and how much are you willing to put into it? Then how handy are you?
Damage like this is completely repairable and I have redone entire walls so you can never tell it was damaged. If you want to do a complete repair, you need to start by opening up the wall so you know how much the wall joists are still intact. Once you know that, you can make a judgement as to how to proceed. I am doubtful this damage is from a simple window leak, but maybe.
What you will discover when you open the wall is that is not much holding these things together. Sometimes you are lucky and you can nail down the leak and scab on a new partial wall joist. Then search to find matching wall board and you can do the entire wall or patch it.
That Angler has a rubber roof and I can tell you Fleetwood did a crap job on their rubber roofs in that they normally carried the rubber over just enough to get it behind the aluminum trim that goes over the rubber. Folks are great at rollering crap all over rubber roofs but never resealing the edging (as in unscrew, remove, new tacky tape, and new stainless screws). The screws rust, water gets in, and runs down inside the walls. Leaks are almost always on the trim perimeters, not on the roof proper. Or more simply put, most folks expend energy doing what doesn't need to be done and ignoring the stuff that causes the problem.
Steve
Thanks all,
Wouldn't you know it! It's raining to beat all hell and I just brought the camper home.....and I live in a desert (Central WA so a little more rain than the Mojave but not much. We get about 8" a year here....except THIS YEAR!
A little about me: I run a small portable sawmill business on the side and work for the phone company full time (manager). I've been building a cabin in the woods for several years (it's what got me into portable saw milling) and used to do construction (a lifetime ago)....so I can tackle that kind of work -- if I want to
My hope with this camper, frankly, was to seal it up and patch it well enough to hold for the summer and then sell it. I'd like a newer one with AC and the various things that come with newer campers (this one is pretty plane Jane, heck my Evolution tent trailer might have had more features )
I wanted something to test out on the truck and at the job sites as a place to stay and to decide what I really wanted in a camper for that day I go out and spend some money on one and this one seemed like a good way to do that.
I brought the camper home last night and so far I can see the tie downs on the right side, where the damage is, are a bit weak. Seems to hold ok though but clearly the wood is soft there and needs some help. My gut reaction is as above (to screw in some wood) as, for example, the picture damage above is very limited and I've got solid wood to the north and south of the damage about 6" away (so a total of about 12" of 'soft' wood). Feels like it was a low spot in the plywood where water pooled.
I've decided to put a battery in it, fill the propane, add water (and flush and add again me thinks) get longer chains for the turn buckles since they were too short to reach the right holes in the tie downs (Torklift that I just had put on my truck) put some plywood on the seat, sealer around the windows etc and then head off to my next milling job this weekend and see how she does.
Figured getting my feet wet (hopefully not) was the way to start LOL and get familiar with this old box.
Weak tie down points are a sure sign of internal rot. What I would do is remove the stock tie down's entirely and run a length of appropriate width angle iron (structural angle) the entire length of the camper and drill holes at the appropriate tie down points, screwing the angle into the lower side of the camper all along the lower edge. That will distribute the pull of the tie down's the entire length and hopefully some of the wood is sound along the bottom edge.
You stand a real good chance of bulling the tiedown out and causing collateral damage.
Don't forget to paint the angle iron, it rusts. Sounds to me like a lot of internal (no see em) rot.
That is a very intimidating job fixing it. I'd see how the camper works for you before tackling it and / or selling it and buying another.. Now that you know what to look for.
If I was buying any used unit, I'd be doing a very through inspection (as you have learned).
Most any unit that is stored outside in the weather will have issues somewhere. I keep mine inside unless I'm using it, always, but that isn't practical for most people.
Never been a fan of TorqLift tie down's or Fast guns. Way too expensive for the intended use. Go read my thread here or on the Open Roads forum. Interesting comments about securing a camper to a truck and a lot of myths explored.
So the bad:
1. Both tie downs on the right side (passenger) are bad/weak. One the local RV shop moved inward to a secure location that they said would work (it seems to), the second pulled down as soon as I left the RV shop so I pulled back in and they said "yup, that's bad".....and proceeded to advise that I tie down off the jack support and claimed that it was 'legal'.
I will need to do some serious rehab on that side of the camper while the other side is good.
2. Fridge, stove, water pump, toilet and lights all work. No idea of the heater works or how to start this one (it's different than my tent trailer heater but i have to assume it's not too similar.
I took the camper to my next job (which I was desperate to get to) 112 miles away, parked it, got in and crashed for the night.
If I can get the heater working and fix that bad wall this wouldn't be a half bad way to travel to jobs
I explained to you how to stop gap remedy the tie down (and jack) situation in a previous post using a length of angle iron. Moving the tie down points to find a sold wood area is counter productive. It only streeses what's left that's good and nothing else.
I'd run angle iron down both sides under the side along the bottom just to be sure.
Get on the net and goggle up your heater, in fact all the appliances. You'll find not only manuals but how to instructions for using them. It's all there, right on your computer.
BTW, how much was the camper?
All RV furnaces are about the same in terms of how they work. If you understand one, you pretty much understand them all. Doesn't that Angler just have the standard snap action thermostat on the wall? After that it needs 12-volts DC and propane. If nothing at all happens, check the fuse first in the distribution panel.
Steve
You have to remove all the old before applying new.
Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out if the hot water is even hooked up. Owner said they disconnected and I see an inlet or outlet that is open and what looks like the overpressure valve.....anyone have a good source for this 1995 Angler hotwater heater? I'd like to try to figure it out while also figuring out the heater....
So far my down and dirty sealing seems to have worked. I'm seriously considering pulling the siding up from the damaged section and seeing how tough it would be to replace the studs. I've seen a few vids of others doing and sites etc and it appears some scabbing of 2x2 studs can be done and some additional beefing up.
Don't really want to spend much time on it but don't like the way it ties down right now and am thinking with some new studs/framing and some angle iron run to the jacks it might just work like a charm...
Also looking at getting some eternabond for the roof edges. Figure I can scrape/wire brush off the flaky crap and bond that stuff over the edges to seal them better.
I'd like the camper to survive until next spring and be worth at least a grand at that point...I can then sell it and buy a nicer/newer NON LEAKING camper
That will be a trick in as much as used and leaking somewhere go hand in hand.
What I'd do with the HWH is get the make, either an Atwood or Surburban and the model number off the heater and look it up. All the owners manuals are on line and all the Q&Q stuff is as well.
Found the owners manuals (she had them still).....think it looks like the water flows in the back and the stuff I see in front are drains or overflows. Will have to check to see if propane makes it to the pilot light and then see if it will light etc...should have water flow through it regardless unless they somehow plugged it off.
Might have to be buy new Don't want leaks!
I've been using a 'can apply when wet' sealer I found at HD...seems to be working to keep things dry so maybe, just maybe, I've got the main leaks all plugged. Don't see any wet wood now so crossing fingers.
Then if I get the hot water and heater working I can look at putting some wood in where it's weak (ply) and will contemplate opening up the side in the future to put some studs in....or may just flog it after this summer
A heat gun or hair dryer helps to soften old caulking. Eternabond needs a clean surface.
Can you tell me a little more about what you mean when you say the water heater was disconnected ie. does it fill with water? Drop the door and shoot a clear pic of the water heater and I may be able to walk you through the repair. I expect you have a propane only Suburban with a pilot light rather than a direct spark ignition (push button light from inside your camper).
Steve
If it's a Suburban it will have a sacrifical anode rod at the bottom of the tank and the valve at the top is the T&P valve, that relieves the pressure should it overheat. The anode rod needs yearly replacement you can get one on Amazon. Get a genuine Suburban anode rod, not an aftermarket one. The aftermarket ones are aluminum. The Suburban anode is magnesium. Much better.
If the heater is an Atwood, it has no rod but will have a T&P valve just like your water heater at home has. RVT is probably right, it's a standing pilot model not a DSI (Direct spark ignition) heater. You have to light it when you want hot water.
It should have lines going into it on the inside, one marked hot and one marked cold and probably a line connecting the 2. Thats the bypass line for winterizing. You want shut that and open the other 2, fill your FW tank and let the water pump fill the hot water heater. What I do is open the T&P valve at the top and fill the heater until water comes out the valve and close it. That allows the heater to be filled but still leaves a little air space at the top for expansion (remember hot water expands).
If it's a standing pilot, you need to be sure the pilot orfice is clean and free of spider webs and the burner is clean and free of bug stuff as well. RVT knows more about the gas valves but if the pilot will light and stay lit, it should heat the water.
Nothing beats hot water in a camper other than a good mattress...lol
Nice mill btw. I cut a lot of trees on my property and give all the wood away.
Found the water shut off to the hot water tank.
One question: if there is no water in the tank would the heater run anyway?
Also (ok this is two now), will it need a new anode if it hasn't been used in several years?
Suburban furnaces use a sail switch for proving flame and they tend to stick when not used for a time. I think first thing I'd do is insure no 'insects' have set up residence inside and if they have clean it out with compressed air and check the proving sail switch for free movement. You can buy cover screens for the inlet / outlet on a Surburban, I'd suggest getting one and getting one for the HWH as well.
My next camper will have a catalytic heater not forced air. Takes up less space, basically maintenance free.
First, I tried to fill the hot water heater. Turned on the pump after plugging the tanks outlet hole which was open when I bought the tank (I'm assuming that is what it is because it goes into the tank and has a plastic screw plug that was out) and opening the relief valve which did move.
However, I discovered there are two valves to route the water past the tank or to it/from it and the bottom valve is frozen though I think I moved it just enough to partially cut off the water from either direction. Now the pump cycles every few seconds and I can feel the pressure in the line going to the tank.
So, I'll have to order a new valve and am wondering how bad the inside of the hot water heater is.
On to the heater which is a Hydroflame. I blew it out best I could and tried to start it again to see what it does. No fan. Some clicking and the 5amp breaker pops. I'm guessing maybe a bad blower motor?
So at this point I have to ask myself: is it worth it? I'm told a blower motor is around $180 and then of course having someone who knows what they are doing look at it.....and then there is the hot water...I could just make due until winter and then flog it.
The only way you'll find out if the blower is tied up is pull the furnace. If it is and you are at all handy, you can free it and oil the bushings and be good for the time it takes to pull it. Could be a mouse nest in there too but you won't know until you pull it.
Try soaking the stuck valve with PBlaster or liquid wrench and let it sit a day and then wiggle it.
The only 'touchy' point is the gas connection. Everything else is a screwdriver affair.
Look at it this way. You get everything ship shape, you have a nice camper that you refit yourself.
OK I'll have to yank the heater out and try soaking the valve. Was looking online to see where I could get a replacement valve...didn't see any like these just some plastic jobs...anyone have a source?
Also wouldn't mind finding some hardware replacements.
A little too busy between my job and my milling business to get much done but I did remove one rotten piece of 1/4" ply from under the left side (facing the camper) and replace it. The 1x's were fine and it appeared to be pretty much just a spacer/cover for the 1" insulation under that part of the floor. I put in a new piece and used liquid nails and staples to secure it. I'll paint with undercoat to protect it soon also.
Then I removed a layer off the other side (right -- under the storage compartment) and undercoated what was left. Later I'll replace that section also now that I know what it is.
Just really minor stuff but every little but counts right? Sealed up a few more spots too but no leaks (and a lot of rain) since I brought it home and sealed it a few weeks back (or is it longer now)....
Gotta use it this weekend then maybe I'll have a weekend off that I can do a little more on (like pull the heater). Still haven't gotten the hot water to work either (sheesh) but I'll live without it (baby wipes) for a weekend of milling.
What I'm hoping to find is a place I can purchase latches, trim etc for older campers (1995) but I haven't yet.
Thanks -- Clicked but when I go to 'Truck Camper parts interior' it says there is nothing in that category.
Got a new valve for the hot water (used but new to me) and replaced it, then filled the tank.
I followed the above directions to fill it and after rereading them and redoing it a couple times I think I got it right.
I then fired up the hot water heater.
Once I had the pilot lit I moved to the 'on' setting and it fired up like this. I thought it was a bit orange and waited to see what it would do. It died.
I then restarted the pilot as it had blown out and it then fired again.
This time the flame was blue (barely visible) and it sounded better but it died again
Can't seem to get the pilot to stay lit as when the heater goes out the pilot also dies.
Could this be a problem in the flue? Maybe a nest in there? I didn't see any smoke. Maybe the pilot needs adjusting? Thoughts? No hot water yet but it's getting closer!
Sounds like your thermocouple may not be working correctly (it opens the gas supply to the pilot & the burner) [it is the lower connection, approx 1/8" diameter tube, usually copper or aluminum, on the right in your pix] fastened at each end with a (usually) 7/16 or 1/2" mut to the burner housing & the gas valve. They're inexpensive & easily replaced, just take it to your local gas supplier, hardware or RV dealer (RV dealer will probably be most expensive) & get a replacement as close in length (tho it doesn't matter a lot if the new one is longer), re-install & give it a try. If it don't work, you've probably got a bad gas valve but since you got a nice blue flame & strong sound your valve is probably working. You may have a bad gas supply (regulator, tank, lines) but if your other gas appliances are working OK it's probably OK too.
Your top pic is definitely too 'orange' but the second looks like a nice, blue flame. Did it make a strong whistling/roaring sound while burning. If so, sounds like it's doing what it is supposed to 'til fuel ran out for one reason or another. I'd check thermocouple first, mainly because it's easy & the most likely culprit.
Thanks for the reply. I'll try that.
Meanwhile I need to drain the tanks (I hear rest areas around here have free dump sites) and then must take a closer look at the framing on the bad side I'm afraid. I could have a piece of metal welded down the side but I think I really need to consider some options as there isn't any good wood in the key areas I think.
I'm thinking I could cut off the interior paneling and at least take a look....then if I am lucky maybe I can scab in some studs in the interim
I should add that I'm mostly out of time as I mill almost every weekend! During the week I get some down time at night but I might have to do this on the fast if I plan to conitnue to use the camper this summer much
OK I went and did it! I opened up the inside to see what I could see as I was worried about the extent of damage.
I was THRILLED! Looks like I mostly just need a new 1x2 base plate on this wall!
Obvious damage here but with a new base plate tied into the good studs and some minor stud repair with some metal Simpson T brackets I think this is doable!
Next stud past the one to the left of the tie down.
This corner is wet still
My thought is to let it dry out and then remove the jack, treat the wood, scab in some additional wood and maybe replace that plywood which is soft by the jack.
One thing I'm wondering is if I can pull off the bottom section of the siding only? If I can then I can pull it off without taking the rest off, replace the base plate, fix the tie downs and then put the siding back on. Once done I can put some 1" foam insulation in the walls, calk and seal it all up and put some new panel on the inside though I think I'll have to panel all the way to the roof or at least the window and up the corner.
Might look a little funny but if I do it right (or darn close) it might not look bad and I don't care much how it looks other then to sell it when I'm done
My main concern is hauling it to job sites -- I don't want it coming apart on the road -- so that's the reason to dig in.
Can I pull the siding, let it dry, replace the bad base plate, tie it together and put it all back in a weekend? I might try! LOL
This is the corner near the pantry and fridge (still in the dinette opposite of the outside corner where the jack is)
Studs still look savable at this point
Jack corner
Vents are open up top but I thought I'd add some heat to see if I can get it drying it a bit faster.
I'm planning on digging in deeper this week/weekend to see if I can fix the tie downs
That heater really dried out the corner!
Ordered some 'Git'-Rot for the corner and wood I can't easily replace. Going to replace the base plate, re-enforce things and then shoot git rot into the rest and put it all back together. WISH ME LUCK!
What I use. It's not cheap but it works well. Replaces the 'lignun' think thats it, in the wood and seals it with epoxy. I think I'd add new material where the tie down is.
If it was me, I'd pull the glass wool insulation (which retains moisture and replace it with expanding spray foam and shave it to width after it cures. Much better insulation and don't retain moisture. Reason why RV builders don't use it, is it's expensive and they are cheap....
I was thinking of pulling the window and using foam with spray foam filler around it.
I plan to replace the base plate (the board the tie down bolts through) and do a little re-enforcing while I'm at it but plan to inject the plywood and corner stud instead of pulling the jack etc.
Basically I'm going to frame in the easy stuff and then use git rot on things I don't want to mess with....
Speaking of which I need to go out and put the heat on again and dry some more of it out.
If you don't want metal showing on the outside bottom, lay a length of flat siron the width on the sill plate on tgop of the sill plate INSIDE the camper and secured it and run your tie down bolt through that.
Amazing how they rot isn't it?
Got it opened up and removed the rotten wood, replaced what I felt I must, put git rot in some and glued and screwed and drilled until things were in place. Tomorrow we should be able to get the exterior buttoned up and then I'll work in the interior. But at this point it's MUCH stronger than it was!
I put metal on the inside (T brackets) of each stud to the new base plate and a strip of metal across the tie down going several inches in both directs for added strength but I'm not too worried. It's stronger now that it was when new probably
Got the exterior back together
Finishing up the interior
Just using paneling to cover it all.
This is what I did.
I also put T brackets on the base of the studs to the base plate and some 90 degree brackets at the tops in strategic places. I think it will work
Just a little more and it will be finished. Ignore the crappy calking job -- that is not something I've ever done well! lol
Just a little trim to place and a little more 'Git-Rot' to put in it and I'll get it back on the truck.
Hi,
great Job, i hope i can start my Restauration soon, after the Heavy rain here in Germany stops and the Spring get's started.
Best regards
Torsten
Thanks. Still some work to do but it should be fine to use now and I can finish later as long as the rear jack holds up (we'll see).
Tahnks Still some work to do, and I will get to it as soon as I can but this was a weekend (and a bit) repair as I need to use the camper the next two weekends milling. Then I'll be at our cabin the next and.....you get the idea! LOL I'll finish it during the week one of these weeks but for now it's good to go and feels nice and solid on the truck now too
Felt pretty solid up in the air Got it on the truck and strapped down.
Going to ask this question in a separate thread but "how tight" is tight enough? I now understand that I am darn near strong enough to pull the tie downs out by hand so I don't want to put a wrench on them and crank them down super tight before asking how tight should they be?
Ready for the road Took it on it's maiden voyage since the overhaul and everything seemed great. Sure there is movement but I'm assuming there always is anyway but I do have new tie downs coming.
Also got the black and grey water tanks dumped. Noticed the black water tank guage is still reading 2/3rds full though.
Quick update:
I backed the camper into my son-in-laws car while backing my sawmill up into the driveway in a hurry! DOH! All I hit on the camper was the right rear jack. $900 damage to the little car (ouch) and the camper jack was loose with not so good wood behind it....so I tried Git-Rot after some advice from a boat builder turned body many (basically let the git rot start to cure before jamming it in there and putting the screw in behind it.
This seems to have worked as the camper comes on and off the truck ok now though I will need to do more repairs I think.
Meanwhile I replaced the thermocouple in the hot water tank but it did not make much difference. Ignite the pilot, start the hot water, blue flame, runs maybe a minute to 90 seconds and then dies and the pilot goes out too.
I'm wondering if I adjusted the pilot if it would make a difference? I'm also wondering if I need to pull the whole thing to see that nothing is blocking the flew (that I can't see now).
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)